Dave McGillivray: Boston Marathon Race Director and Endurance Legend

In this episode of the New England Endurance Podcast, hosts Art Trapotsis and Eric Schenker welcome Dave McGillivray, the race director of the Boston Marathon (for 37 years!) They explore Dave's journey in endurance sports, his defining moments in life as an athlete, the evolution of the running community in New England, and the significance of the Boston Marathon. 

Dave is a remarkable figure in the New England community, and he shares numerous inspiring stories that highlight his impact. He's also an incredible endurance athlete with a resume a mile long...including a run across America from Medford, MA to Medford, OR.

The conversation also delves into the prestige of the Boston Marathon and the complexities surrounding the Boston Qualifier (BQ). In this engaging conversation, Dave gets into the evolving landscape of marathon running, discussing qualification standards, the impact of super shoes, and the significance of the wheelchair division. They explore the vibrant community surrounding the Boston Marathon, the iconic crowds, and the potential for new events. McGillivray shares insights on the endurance culture in New England, emphasizing the importance of health and community support.

Key Takeaways

• His journey into endurance sports began with a defining moment in high school.
• The New England running community has evolved significantly over the years.
• Philanthropy plays a crucial role in endurance events, especially the Boston Marathon.
• The Boston Marathon is not just a race; it's a legacy of excellence.
• Health and fitness are intertwined, and being fit doesn't always mean being healthy.
• The qualifying process for the Boston Marathon is highly competitive and sought after.
• The wheelchair division has a rich history and is celebrated at the Boston Marathon.
• Crowds at the Boston Marathon create a unique and supportive atmosphere for runners.

Tune in to listen to this riveting episode and get inspired to stay active and give back!

Art & Eric embark on a journey to showcase and celebrate the endurance sports community in New England.

Transcript

Art Trapotsis (00:02)
Hey, welcome to the New England endurance podcast where we celebrate the amazing endurance community in New England. I'm your host Arch Rapotzis along with Eric Schenker.

Dave McGillivray (00:03)
Thanks

EAZY E (00:12)
Hey, great to be recording another episode Art. I think this is episode 34, which is incredible. And this is a big one. Today we're talking to a man who has not just seen endurance sports grow, but I can honestly say he has helped shape endurance sports in New England, if not the world.

Art Trapotsis (00:29)
Yes, our guest today is none other than Dave McGilvery. He's the race director for the Boston Marathon. He's an incredible endurance athlete, has a resume a mile long. He's a philanthropist who's run across the US before Ultra was actually called Ultra, literally. And Dave, we're super humbled and excited to have you here today. So welcome to the podcast.

Dave McGillivray (00:52)
Thank you, Eric. Boy, this is number 34, so you're really getting to the bottom of the barrel when you're getting to me,

EAZY E (00:59)
Well, we just figured out how to record the sound better and things like that. So we were waiting for the good guests until we worked out some of the bugs.

Dave McGillivray (01:03)
Okay. okay. I feel better now. We're good. We're good. We can continue. Yeah.

Art Trapotsis (01:12)
So Dave, let's kick it off here. So you've been involved with endurance sports literally your whole life. You grew up in Medford. My friends who are from Medford and I went to Tufts, which is in Medford, they tell me that all roads lead back to Medford. I'm just curious, like how did you get into endurance sports as a kid? Like did something inspire you? Was there a specific moment?

Dave McGillivray (01:24)
Yeah, I mean, I always say in life there are defining moments for all of us. Some are good, some maybe not so good, but how you process them, how you deal with them defines who you are as a person. And for me, growing up in Medford, close to Boston, I was surrounded by sports, professional sports, Celtics, Red Sox, Patriots, Berlins, and so forth. So as a young boy, I just wanted to be one thing and one thing only. And that was a professional athlete.

And my very specific goal was to play second base at Fenway Park. mean, I was a second baseman in Little League and Babe Ruth. And my dream was second base Fenway Park. But unfortunately, because I was sort of physically challenged, which means short in stature, I was always the last one picked, the last one cut when I went out for team sports, high school team sports. it was, it was debilitating.

Dave McGillivray (02:29)
to, you know, I learned the concept at the young age of 14, 15 of rejection that, you know, not that nobody wanted me, but I couldn't make the cut. And so it was really tough. And I remember when I went out for the high school basketball team and I got cut and the coach comes up to me, puts his arm around me, looks down at me. Well, everyone looked down at me and he says, David, if you were five inches tall and you'd be my starting guy. And I looked at the coach coach.

Art Trapotsis (02:36)
Hmm.

Dave McGillivray (02:57)
I thought it had to do with ability level, not how tall you were. So I challenged the center who made the team to one-on-one to 21. He was six, four. I was five, four, point three, eight, seven on a good day. I beat him defining moment in my life. And I walked off the court that day and I said to myself, I will never ever, ever allow anyone to tell me I'm not good enough, that I don't belong. And I went home that night, I put a sign over my bed and the sign said, please God make me grow.

Art Trapotsis (03:14)
Wow.

Dave McGillivray (03:28)
Well, he must have been on vacation or answering someone else's prayer because he didn't make me grow or did he? And I look back on my life in retrospect, I said, son of a gun, he did make me grow. He made me grow in so many other ways. Made me grow morally and ethically and spiritually, intellectually and mentally, made me grow internally. Cause that's where it's all happening is who you are inside, not who you are physically. So what did I start to do? I started to run. Why? Cause nobody can catch you from running.

And I just started setting all these personal goals, these challenges for myself, not to prove other people wrong, but just to gain self-confidence and self-esteem and believe in myself. So I started setting up all these endurance things for myself. And here we are today, 50 years later, and I've done all these crazy things.

EAZY E (04:17)
gotta take a deep breath. That was amazing.

I think we've asked a similar question to other folks. How did you get started? And sometimes we say, were you just not good enough at team sports? And which is why we all get into endurance sports in some ways. And whether you validated that or not, that was an amazing journey and a fantastic answer.

Talking a little bit about that running community now that you have been a part of for so long, the running community in New England is incredibly tight. And we've hearing that over and over on this podcast. From your perspective, if you look at that New England endurance scene, what makes it so special? And what would you love to see more of happen here in New England specifically?

Dave McGillivray (04:59)
And the way I can answer that is to go back and when I started running back when I was 12 There weren't that many people out on the road. I was kind of out there Semi-solo and you I just see these people like like a Bill Rogers He lived in Melrose and I lived in Medford and I ran around spot pond and I'd bump into Billy every now and then I would bump into people I wouldn't go out and run with people

Cause there weren't that many that did it at the time. You got to remember running back in those days was considered a source of punishment. If you did something wrong in another sport, give me five laps. Well, I would say, or only five, you know, I'll do 10 for you. I'll do 20, you know, cause I just felt the challenge of it all back in those days. And it was interesting because when I was 12 years old on my birthday, I said,

I'm going to go out for a run. And I ran around spot pond in Medford and it was six miles. then later on during the day after cake and ice cream, said, well, I got to burn this off. So I ran around spot pond again. ran 12 miles on my 12th birthday. When I turned 13, I ran 13 or 14, 14, 15, 15. I've been running my age on my birthday for 58 consecutive years without missing a year. But to follow that whole process, that whole connection with the past, you know, I've seen the evolution of this industry.

I would like to think I was a little bit helpful in initiating it too, because in 1978, as you probably know, a friend of mine had biked across the United States from Medford Mass to Medford, Oregon. I thought, geez, if he can bike across the country, I can run across the country. Well, that's an idiotic comparison. But I was a runner, not a cyclist. So I said, I'm going to work with.

hard at this. So I trained really, really hard for it. And that's what I did. I ran from Medford, Oregon to Medford, Mass, finishing in Fenway Park in front of 32,000 people. And, you know, then when I finished that run, it was funny because I took a three month leave of absence from my job as a actuarial assistant because I got a degree in math. And when I got back, my boss said, when you coming back to work? I said, I just ran across a continent. Can I have a few days? Well, three days later, he fired me.

And I thought, I just went across the country for the Jimmy fund raising money for sick kids and I get fired. And I said to myself, you know, best thing that ever happened to me, because I knew I wasn't going in the path that I really was passionate about. was passionate about athletics, about health and fitness, about feeling good about myself, about running. So what did I do? I opened up a running store in Medford and I sold running shoes for a while. And then I started putting on events to promote the store.

And I realized I like putting on events more than shoes on people's feet. And I created this whole event management company when none existed prior to that in the country. people said to me, you really think you can earn a living putting on road races? I said, I'm not putting on road races, just putting on road races. Well, what are you doing? I said, I'm helping to raise the level of self-esteem and self-confidence of tens of thousands of people in America. And they're like, huh? I said,

Art Trapotsis (07:49)
Yes.

Dave McGillivray (08:06)
You'll find out. So then I started building the business and then phenomenon occurred at defining moment again, where philanthropy entered the space. All the events I was producing, it was benefiting local charities because I wanted to give back. But then the local charities started putting on events because they realized they can raise a lot more money putting on a walkathon or a bike-a-thon or a race more than a car wash or a cake sale. And I'm like,

You son of a guns, I've been raising money for you for the longest time and now you're my, my biggest competitor. But then all of a sudden that started changing and these things got so massive that they started hiring me to manage their events, which was pretty cool. And then all of sudden the whole women's movement and then they started entering the space and it just, as you know, took off. So running here in New England in the late eighties and early nineties just started, you know, um, exponentially increasing and then I realized then that this could be a good business.

Art Trapotsis (09:09)
So you did a really cool event back in the 80s I wanted to bring up. It was called the New England Run and it was a massive triathlon that covered all six states. You raised money for the Jimmy Fund. You you ran up Mount Washington. You swam across Lake Winnipesaukee What you know, first of all, why did you do that and what stood out at you, you know, from that experience? And would you recreate it today if you could?

Dave McGillivray (09:35)
Yeah, well, I mean, the first thing of any significance I did was running the Boston Marathon in 1973. I decided I was going to do it in 1972 as a senior at Medford High School. And I called up my grandfather, who was a supporter of my athleticism. And I said, Grandpa, I'm going to go run that race in Boston. He goes, oh, they call that the Boston Marathon. I said, oh, well, that's a good name for it. I'm going go run it. So my brother, my grandfather said, I'll meet you at Coolidge-Connors, because he lived right near the course.

I said, okay, I'll see you at 24 miles. My brother drives me to start, I take off, I'm running, I'm running, I'm running. I got to the Hills of Newton and bam, down I go, flat out in the Hills of Newton. I got taken to the Newton-Wellsley Hospital in an ambulance. I finally get home, I call my grandfather, no answer, call him again, no answer. Finally, nine o'clock at night, he answers the phone. I said, Grandpa, where've you been? He said, Dave, where've you been? I've been waiting for you all night. The old man, Kelly goes by, street sweepers go by, no Dave? I said, well, I quit. He goes, what?

I said, I failed. He goes, nah, you didn't fail. I said, no, what I do is you learn. I said, what did I learn? You learn you cannot go along in life and set reckless goals. You had no business being in that race. He said, I cut another deal with you. said, what? says, you train for it next year. I'll be here waiting for you. Deal. Two months later, he died. I said, oh, I got to do this for grandpa. I train, train, train, officially registered for the 1973 Boston Marathon. I'm ready to go. And the day before the race, I got sick. My parents said,

You can't run. said, I have to run. The newspapers are saying, Dave running in memory of your grandfather. I said, you're too sick. I said, can you give me something that very few other people have ever given to me in my life? What's that? A chance. I mean, isn't that all we ever want in life? Any of us has a chance to do something, to accomplish something. They said, OK. They drove me to the start. I took off. I'm running. I'm running. I got to the point where I dropped out the year before. I'm doing a survivor shuffle over the hills and finally right by Boston College. Bam! Down I go again.

21 and a half miles on the last pick, the last one cut, drop out of my first Boston, drop out of my second Boston. I'm sitting on the curb right there on Com Ave, head in my hand saying, loser, like, I can't get this done. Another defining moment happened and I turned around and I'm sitting in front of the Evergreen Cemetery. And that's where they buried my grandfather. And that son of a gun said, he'd be there, wait for me. And there he was, maybe not physically, but spiritually.

And I said, he kept his end of the deal. picked myself up, finished in four and a half hours, 1973. And I said to myself on that day, I'm going to do this marathon for the rest of my life. And I've run it for the last 52 years in a row. And the reason why I say that is I couldn't get enough. The next thing I did is I went to Hawaii in 1980, did the Iron Man. No one around here knew what an Iron Man was. didn't exist. Triathlon did not exist in New England in 1980.

I read about it in 79, issue of Sports Illustrated. I said, 2.4 mile swim, 112 mile bike, 26 mile marathon, right up my alley. Well, I had two problems. One is I didn't own a bike and two is I didn't know how to swim. So I said, remember what your grandfather taught you about earning the right? I learned how to swim. I bought a bike. I trained like the dickens. I went to Hawaii in 1980 and finished. There was 108 of us in the race. It was on the Island of Oahu. Didn't move over to Kona yet.

Dave McGillivray (12:52)
And I finished 14th out of 108, and I thought, this is great. I love this sport. It's like for me. Came back to New England and I started putting on triathlons here in New England, the New England Triathlon Series, the Cape Card endurance triathlon. I went back to Hawaii in 1983, 84, 85, 86, 87, 88, 89. And I did it eight more times. I did it eight times in the eighties. So as I started doing these crazy endurance things, I thought,

Art Trapotsis (12:56)
Wow.

Dave McGillivray (13:21)
Maybe I'll do a triathlon concept. So that's what I decided to do in the New England run. It's really a New England triathlon where I swam a mile, biked 80 miles and ran 20 every single day for 35 consecutive days around New England and finished at halftime in the England Patriot football game in Foxborough and raised money again for the Jimmy Fund. And I went on to do all, you know, I ran up the East coast of America and just did all these crazy things.

Art Trapotsis (13:47)
my God, that's insane. What an athlete.

EAZY E (13:48)
That's so great.

Have you thought about a sort of broader New England triathlon though? Again, like I did a Sea to Summit many, many years ago, right? Which was really cool. Kayak Bike to Mount Washington, then run up Mount Washington. I always look back on that and really loved that because it covered so much of New England, similar to what you talked about here, the New England run. Have you, any...

Dave McGillivray (14:02)
Yeah.

EAZY E (14:18)
any dreams of another kind of broader New England triathlon like that?

Dave McGillivray (14:22)
Yeah,

I mean, again, I got to be careful. turn 70, I've run 165,000 miles. I've run 170 marathons. You know, I've done 24 hour swims, 24 hour bike rides, 24 hour runs. I did that seven marathons in seven days on seven continents, the world marathon challenge, all these crazy things. Thank goodness, knock on wood, know, orthopedically, maybe not mentally, but orthopedically.

Dave McGillivray (14:51)
I'm good right now, but I know that, you know, not that it's going to come crashing down, but I just got to be careful. So in 2013, I was out for a run one day and I could feel some difficulty in my chest. go, what the heck's going on? I went Mass General Hospital. They did all these tests, now echocardiograms, pulmonary stress tests, EKGs. They said, no, we can't find anything. There's nothing wrong with you. I said, yes, there is. I can't breathe when I'm running. Something's wrong.

Give me the big boy test guys, look under the hood. So they gave me a CAT scan and an angiogram and the doctor walks in and he goes, there, there, there, there and there. I said, there what? He says, you have severe coronary artery disease. I said, no, you're looking at the wrong person's film strips. And he goes, no, you do. I said, how the heck did that happen? All these endurance things I've done, how can I be sick? They said, I don't know, genetics, self-inflicted. I said, let me ask you this question. What? Is this reversible? He goes, it depends. I said, it depends on what?

He goes, depends on the person. said, what are you looking at him? I'm over here. goes, you and your discipline, I think you can have an impact on your own illness. said, well, sign me up. I changed everything. I changed my diet, nutrition, my sleep habits. I always thought sleep was overrated, stress. It was right after the Boston bombings. mean, a lot was going on in my life. And so I said, you know, I got to get healthy again. And I learned a valuable lesson as an endurance athlete that just because you're fit.

doesn't mean you're healthy. And I always thought I did. I thought it did. And so I, you know, I said, all right, I got to fix this. I got to fix it. So I called up the Iron Man and I said, Hey, it's Dave again. And I've done the race nine times or eight times. Can I come back and do it one more time? And they said, yeah, you can come back, but you get to get a note from your doctor. I said, I know for my doctor, I've never got a note from my doctor. Well, we heard about your illness and we don't want you going down.

Art Trapotsis (16:20)
Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (16:46)
in the lava fields. I went to my doctor and I said, can I have a note? He goes, no. I said, why? I don't want you going down the lava fields either. And I said, what's it going to take? He goes, we're going to do another angiogram on you and see if you made improvements. Well, they did. And he says, my goodness, I've never seen this before. I said, what? He goes, you reverse your own coronary artery disease by over 30, 40%. I said, all right. Can I my note? Gave me the note, went back to the Ironman in 2014. So I did it for the nighttime.

Dave McGillivray (17:14)
And then just this past August, I turned 70 and I said, what do I want to give myself for my 70th birthday? Call the Ironman again. I said, any chance I can get in to do Kona for my 10th time? Yes. So this past summer, two hours to seven hours, every single day for six months, I trained for Hawaii and went back in October and did my 10th Ironman and felt pretty good throughout the whole race, finished up all good. So now I'm sitting here going.

What's next? And to our point Eric is, you know, does there always have to be something next? And the answer to that for me is yes. Why? Because when kids, especially kids ask me all the time, what's your best accomplishment? My best accomplishment? I well, my best accomplishment is my next one. It's like, what do you got for me lately? Because the past is gone, right? It's over. I want to take the rear view mirror out of my car and throw it away. So what do I got?

Dave McGillivray (18:11)
And so I'm working on that now. That's what I'm saying.

Art Trapotsis (18:12)
When you look

back on your past though, what was your toughest event? Was there one event that was like, oh my God, that was so hard?

Dave McGillivray (18:22)
Well, as silly as it may sound, you know, I swam in a pool nonstop practically for 24 hours. rode on a bike nonstop for 24 hours, but I ran 120 miles in 24 hours. that, that, that was hard. That was, that one was really hard. I mean, doing the seven marathons in seven days on seven continents, seven marathons, you know, in a row, different continents, different parts of the world. The running part of it, this sounds a little odd, but the running part of it was the easy part.

It was the rat race in between, know, jumping on and off airplanes, trying to recover at 35,000 feet. And so people would think that on my resume that that might've been the toughest thing I ever did, but not, not really. Of course, running across America in 80 days, average in 45, 50 miles every single day, without a day off, to 120 degree in the desert over the Rocky Mountains, 14,000 feet with, you know, 18 wheelers trying to run you out the road and just...

Art Trapotsis (19:09)
God.

Dave McGillivray (19:19)
all the different challenges of running across a continent would take. That was hard, you know, over a period of time, but, you everything has its own challenges and a different degree of difficulty. But, you know, like I said, you know, I'm looking forward to the next one, whatever that is, and I'll come up with it soon.

EAZY E (19:37)
Well, I hope you let us know and we'll announce it here and try to help raise some money because I'm sure there'll be a

Dave McGillivray (19:44)
And you'll do it with me, whatever it is, right? You'll do it with me. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think.

EAZY E (19:47)
You know what, like crazier things have been done. So I will not say no. And Art and I are always up for a challenge. And I think we like to challenge ourselves.

Dave McGillivray (19:55)
All right. You said New England endurance. You're from New England.

EAZY E (19:59)
You're right. All right. Your athletic feats are legendary. We have established that. But I want to of sort of aim towards the Boston Marathon a little bit now, starting with how did those experiences as an athlete shape how you have come to organize and run the Boston Marathon?

Dave McGillivray (20:03)
Yeah.

Sure. Well, I had, like I said, I finished in 73, said I'm going to run it for the rest of my life. ran it 15 years in a row. Then in 1987, there was some incidences that occurred out at the start at Hopkins and there was a wheelchair crash at the start and there was a rope tripping incident. They fired the gun without moving the rope that they held across the starting line and runners tripped and whatnot. Somebody decided we better hire someone to take a closer look at this.

Luckily for me, they hired me as the technical coordinator for the Boston Marathon in 1988. So I went in there and the first thing I did was a control start of the wheelchair division down the first hill of the race and then allowed them free to take off. I removed the rope at the start and put a human chain of volunteers there. And then I personally stood on the starting line and gave the signal to fire the gun when the coast was clear, not because it was high noon kind of a thing. So.

We did some fixing up at the start and one thing led to another. And I started getting more and more responsibilities over the years, started involving my company, DMSC, um, in the race and ultimately became the race director in 2001 and, been with, you know, the BAA ever since. So this is 38 years of, you know, helping to manage the race itself. When I got the job in 1988, I was like,

What do I do? Do I help run it mean direct it or do I continue to run in it as I had promised myself? And I said, I can't pass up the opportunity to be, you know, the race director of the Boston Marathon. So I took the job and I'm standing at the finish line that year high five and all the runners. But, you know, my stomach and head were full of like self pity because I was glad for everyone in the race went off great, but I hadn't run it. I didn't run.

So I tapped the state police trooper on the shoulder. said, officer, you do me a favor. He goes, what? I said, will you drive me back to the start? He goes, why? Did you forget something? I said, yeah, I forgot to run. So he drove me back at eight o'clock at night to the start. standing there on the starting line in Hopkinson all by myself. And he says, I'll escort you back to Boston. I said, all right. I ran behind the state police trooper, his cruiser, all the way into Boston. Finished last, of course. I started eight hours after everyone else.

finished last. And I ran it that way for 36 years in a row, running at night with a couple of people every now and then and stuff. And then last year, I said to the BAA, you know, this running this Boston Marathon at night is getting hard. You know, I'm on my feet all day, nine hours, I'm on a motor scooter leading the lead pack. I said, any opportunity, I could just get everyone going and then jump in. So they said, okay. And so I did.

So last year for the first time in 37 years, I ran during the day. And the last time I ran during the day was in 1987 when there were 9,000 runners, maybe 7,000 runners. And this time there were 30,000 runners. I said, what a whole different experience this was for me. And I ran with my 20 year old daughter. So to this date, that was my 52nd consecutive Boston Marathon. And that race last year was the most emotional and memorable because I ran it with my daughter.

And to run with one of your own children is just pretty special. So I'm looking forward to it this year. This will be number 53. But I have 700 billion stories about the Boston Marathon in terms of what I experienced in terms of directing it, what I experienced in terms of running in it. So we don't have all data through them all, it's in my DNA.

Art Trapotsis (23:37)
Well.

Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (24:05)
directing it or me helping manage it for 38 years and running in it 52 years.

Art Trapotsis (24:11)
Yeah, so you mentioned the BAA, and that stands for

Boston Athletic Association, just for our listeners to know. So the Boston Marathon, it is sort of the crown jewel of marathons, right? It's been going on since 1897. It's like the oldest marathon probably in the world. Would you say it's like the premier road marathon in the world?

Dave McGillivray (24:31)
Yeah, I mean, it depends on how you look at events. know, certainly it's the most well-known, it's the most prestigious, it's not the biggest, you know, what not. But we've never really been about quantity, we've been about quality, right? And, you know, you know, with the Boston Marathon in Hopkinson, we got 39 feet.

at the starting line. know, New York City has 17 lanes on the Verrazano Bridge and Chicago has what they have and London has what they have. And we don't have a lot of space. I've always said as the director that I'm dealing with two major issues. One is space, a lack of, and two is time. I don't have a lot of time. This race is on a Monday, folks. It's not on a Sunday or a Saturday. It's on a Monday. People need to get to work and come home from work and things go on other than just the Boston Marathon.

So we always have to keep those things in mind. And then over the years, prior to me even getting involved, know, the race started to grow a little bit. It went from like, you know, 700 to a thousand to like 1500. And the BAA was a volunteer organization. And they're like, you know, this is getting too large. We better implement some kind of standard in order for people to like qualify. Well, what was interesting about the concept of qualifying times and standards, which was supposed to...

be put in place to control the field size. It created greater demand for the race, because people felt that, ah, that's my Olympic games, the Boston Marathon. I can be too. I can qualify and participate in the most prestigious marathon in the world, but I have to work really hard and earn the right to participate in it. So all of a sudden, the demand for the thing exponentially grew. So the race even grew even more from 1,000 to 5,000 like 9,000.

And then at the hundredth, we had 38,000. So we went from 9,000 in 1995 to 38,000 in 1996. I spent two years of the staff and myself and everyone spent two years putting together the plans, the operational plans for the hundreds running the Boston Marathon, because it was the largest marathon in the world at that time in this little town of Hopkins and these little streets that were only 22 feet wide coming out of Ashland.

No one ever heard of anything like that. So yeah, and it still remains what I would like to consider the holy grail of road racing and marathoning in the world.

Art Trapotsis (26:51)
Wow.

Yeah, let's dig into the BQ, Eric.

EAZY E (27:00)
Let's talk about the BQ. The BQ as Art learned on this very podcast stands for the Boston Qualifier. And to use your phrase, Dave, it's the holy grail for runners. mean, just to hit the qualifying time, even if you never run the Boston Marathon, people focus on that, right? just to actually get the BQ. But let's be honest, okay? Is it so tough because you are just masochists?

and are just trying to create torture and pain for all those runners out there? Or is it just what makes this the, you know, running the Boston Marathon and getting your BQ, the ultimate badge of honor?

Dave McGillivray (27:37)
I mean, just to be honest, neither of those, the standards are set to still control the field size. In 2007, we opened registration and it sold out in eight hours and three minutes. So if you were a heart surgeon and you were working on somebody,

that day and you came home and you had qualified for Boston and you go log on and it says, sorry, no more room at the end. How would that have made you feel? Like you thought you were an automatic. So we had to change the whole registration process for the Boston Marathon from that point on, because there were way, way, way more people qualifying than we had room. Right. And now we have this other dynamic, which I support wholeheartedly of the charity program.

So 80 % of the runners in the race qualify and 20 % don't. And those 20%, the majority of them are raising money for very worthwhile causes. It's another way to get in, but you've got to do more work and you've got to not only train, but you've got to raise money. last year we raised collectively over $45 million for worthwhile causes in the New England area. So it's a very important part of the race now.

EAZY E (28:54)
.

Dave McGillivray (29:00)
But as a result of 80%, though if our fail size limit based on how many people we can truly handle safely and efficiently, and we reopen the roads on a very sophisticated road reopening program, we can't have people out there all day. So there's a limit. And right now that limit is basically 30,000. Well, 80 % of 30,000 is 24,000. So for the last few years, we can only accept 24,000 qualified runners.

So the way the system works now is that anybody who qualifies has the right to apply. Not that you're guaranteed a spot. You can apply. And then once everyone applies, it's like applying to a college. Even if you're a valedictorian at your high school, just because you apply to Harvard doesn't mean you're getting in, because they're going to ping you against all the other applicants, and they want to take the best of the best. Well, that's what the Boston Marathon is about.

It's about the pursuit of athletic excellence. It's about taking the best of the best. So we let everyone apply and then we know what that cutoff is, how many people we can accept. So we go down the list based on how much you beat your qualifying time by and we get to the field size limit. We shut it down. And then anyone after that, unfortunately, don't make the cut, which in my opinion, unfortunately stinks. It stinks that we have to turn away people who actually qualify, but

Sometimes you're a victim of your own success, right? So that has happened. You know, this past year we turned away 12,000, not runners, runners, 12,000 once those letters go out, guess who gets hammered by, know, hey, I only missed by 10 seconds. Can you get me in? But the fact of the matter is, that

The only way then that you can sort of manage the demand is to squeeze the times. And so the BAA decided for 2026 that their qualifying times are going to be squeezed by five minutes, which means that everything being equal, then if everyone runs the same times, although people up their game and they'll run faster, but if it stayed the same, we would not be turning away as many people.

EAZY E (31:14)
Art and I scientifically have proven that the men's age 50 to 55 is the most competitive age, right? Like just because both he and I are in it and we just agree that the most handsome, smartest, sort of fastest athletes are men. 50, makes sense, right? Like I think we can all, we can all agree on that, that's science. But so like you said, for 2025, you had 36,000 people.

Dave McGillivray (31:25)
us.

Makes sense to me.

EAZY E (31:36)
qualifying, who ran a qualifying time. For reference, the men's 50 to 55 was a 325. Okay. And you had to finish faster than 651 below that time to qualify. Right. So that's, we're just going to, for those that aren't intimately like as part of that. And then what you're saying is I saw already now for 2026,

Dave McGillivray (31:43)
Yeah.

reference.

EAZY E (32:01)
Instead of it for men 50 to 55, instead of it being 325, it's now 320. And that still doesn't guarantee you to get in. So it's pretty incredible feat. To your point, though, I will say this. I'm extremely proud, Dave. I have a BQ. I'm running again in 25. So I got that number. But the

Dave McGillivray (32:08)
Correct. No one knows.

EAZY E (32:22)
The challenge was is that like my marathon times are actually getting faster as I get older because I am chasing that BQ. And it's just totally insane that it seems to be happening for everybody. The fact that you're...

Dave McGillivray (32:32)
Yeah!

across the board. It is.

Art Trapotsis (32:40)
How

are people getting faster?

EAZY E (32:43)
Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (32:43)
People are getting faster. one of the, one of the, I think, I don't know, I'm to use the residual effects of the qualifying times getting tighter is that people are more committed and they're training harder and they're running faster. What's wrong with that? That's a good result of this.

You know, my whole thing is in years gone by, we used to open registration for Boston in September and we didn't close it until March. Right. And everybody who applied, get in. Everybody who qualified, who applied, get in. I like that. Cause like when, you were on the St. Louis marathon and whatever, and you know, eight months later you register.

Art Trapotsis (33:23)
Do you think like super shoes are contributing to it at all?

Dave McGillivray (33:26)
Of course, it's even helping me. I wear them too. You why not? You got to get in the game and you got to have an equal playing field, right, for everybody. So there's a lot of reasons why people are getting faster, which I think is good for the sport. It makes people feel better about themselves that they're running fast at times. but that's, you know, my whole thing is I would rather have somebody, you know, I would rather have somebody maybe not qualify than have someone qualify.

and then apply and then not get in. Because I feel like as a member of the BAA, I turned them away, which I didn't. But effectively, that's what happened. Whereas if they didn't make the cut, then their hopes wouldn't have been up, hoping that they would get in and they didn't. So I would like it to be almost that if the standards are tight enough that only a certain number qualify, but those who do, who apply,

EAZY E (34:10)
Mm-hmm.

Dave McGillivray (34:22)
99 % of them get in. That's what I'm shooting for, least me personally, so that we're not turning people away.

Art Trapotsis (34:31)
Well, speaking of that, if, you know, let's say you didn't qualify and you don't have the network to raise $10,000 or whatever it might be, have you ever considered making a few spots available for just sort of the everyday athlete, sort of a random lottery for those folks?

Dave McGillivray (34:47)
Well,

depends. You got to remember that the Boston Athletic Association is made up of a lot of people, right? So you have a board of governors, you have staff, you have consultants, you have sponsors, you have the city of Boston, you have eight cities and towns. know, everyone plays a role and has a hand in a lot of it and decision making. I'm only one person and everyone is welcome to their opinion on

what they might like to see happen with me or us. Sometimes people might get critical on decisions that are made, which I understand that's human nature. But the fact that the issue becomes they don't have all the facts, right? This happens in everyday life. People will have an opinion about something. Well, I don't know why they didn't do it this way. Well, they didn't do it that way because this, that and the other thing. I didn't know that.

No kidding, you didn't know it. Why would you know it? It was the same thing with us, making decisions based on a lot of different things that we have to delicately balance, right? So for me, in a perfect world, this sounds, might sound silly, but I've always floated out there. Am I serious? I think I'm serious, but I don't know that anyone else is interested in doing this, but I've always felt that maybe every five years there should be two races.

one on Saturday and one on Monday. And Saturday is like the first timers, right? Never run Boston, bucket list, can't raise the money, can't qualify, but they're missing out on that, opportunity to run in this race that so many other people before them have run, but they just don't make the cut. But they're a devoted, hard work and passionate, dedicated, everyday out there training type person. And they would.

raise $10,000, but they don't have that network that a lot of other people do. Why not give them an opportunity? So I always thought that Saturday should be first time as in charity runners, which would open up Monday, but just qualifies and then you can accept more. yeah, obviously the economic impact of that would be over the moon, obviously, but are there enough hotel rooms? Is there enough this? Is there enough manpower to...

managed to events. So that's a concept that we'll probably never see the light of day. But to your point, from the 100th, we initially said, OK, we're going to accept 25,000. That was our goal, a year out. And thinking at the time, we would probably get around 15,000 people to qualify. And then we would have a lottery. And the lottery would be, 10,000 people.

Art Trapotsis (37:09)
Heh.

Dave McGillivray (37:32)
So we had a lottery and we picked 10,000 people, but we never shut registration down because we never had to thinking we'll still get the 15,000 qualifies. Well, right after January 1st, all of sudden everyone and their uncle decided to, who qualified, decided to register. We're like, oh, where do all these people come from? So we ended up getting over another 10,000 people, like another 13, 15,000 people register in the month of January.

Well, I had all these plans for 25,000 people. All of a the race swelled to almost 40,000. Right. But my point being, and then I had to adjust all the plans. was a nightmare to try to figure this all out, but we did and it worked great. But the point being is that for the first time only, there was a lottery in the Boston Marathon. So people get in who otherwise never would have had an opportunity to run. So maybe that's something that could be considered someday. But again, that's above my pay grade.

EAZY E (38:31)
I

really love that. I think that idea of a Saturday race is pretty interesting. was lucky enough one year, two years to go to the Flanders, which is a big bike race, a one day classic. And they do something similar. They do a citizens race on Saturday and then you watch the pro race on Sunday and you get to ride that course. I'll always be thankful for that. But here's another alternative for people who don't qualify. So last year,

Dave McGillivray (38:49)
Yeah.

EAZY E (38:57)
I missed my BQ. I didn't get it. So I didn't run in 2024. So I did the midnight ride. OK, that was my... I did the midnight ride. All right. So my question for you is, and for those that don't know, the cyclist, the midnight ride is sort of unofficial, loosely organized, not really organized. Cyclists start at the finish line, the day of the marathon.

at midnight and they ride their bikes to the finish line. Start at the starting line in Hopkinton and they ride. And I had never done it. I learned about it on this podcast. I did it. There were people out there with like lights on their bikes and horns and like people having a great time and everything. My question for you is, do you hate it? Do you love it? it a headache?

Dave McGillivray (39:26)
that starting line.

You're setting me up

here.

EAZY E (39:47)
No, mean,

this is an open, like you won't say anything bad. I think it's just, it's, it's, it's a really interesting community grassroots event, but I can imagine as an organizer, you're like, man, we don't need all these cyclists riding out there at midnight.

Dave McGillivray (39:51)
Well, yeah.

Well,

I mean, it's a free country and open road. Pretty much, I guess, do what you want. mean, when, if the cyclists take over the road and you can't get vehicular traffic through, or it becomes dangerous, that's not good for anybody. So as long as it's managed properly, we're not doing anything out of the start line at midnight. I don't even get there myself until about four in the morning or so. So.

You know, in terms of assembling there, that's up to Hopkins and Hopkins police and all that. You know, it's more, it's not the BAA's call or any of us managing our race call. It's more the cities and towns and what they allow and wouldn't allow. My biggest concern would be just if it got too late or too long, is it inhibiting the work we need to do to set up the course?

in the finish for the race. know that in the past few years when that event, well, in the initial years of that event, they got right to the finish line. But we got to the point where we say we can't have all these cyclists all over the finish line when we're trying to set up for the marathon. So now I think they are directed to exit at Exeter Street and not cross over the actual finish line itself.

EAZY E (41:15)
that's correct.

but I will say to do it was pretty cool. I got to be honest with you. You're standing there. You just rode 26 miles, which is a legitimate bike ride. It's dark and you get to the lights and the finish line is set up and it's bright and you're there with it. It's pretty cool. I got to say it was pretty cool. I will miss.

Dave McGillivray (41:22)
Yeah, I'm sure it is.

No. It is gross.

EAZY E (41:37)
I will miss doing it this year. And my friend who I did it with, we call him Cookie Bob. He's one of our sponsors. He said, Eric, you're never going to get your BQ again, which is probably right, because I just keep getting older and these times just keep getting faster. So he says, you got to do the double. You got to ride the midnight ride and then do the marathon. So I don't know. It's something in the back of my head.

Dave McGillivray (41:53)
and

So did you do the ride this past year?

EAZY E (42:02)
I did the ride this, yeah, in 2024. It was like cold and rainy, actually. Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (42:03)
Okay, 2024.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

How many, if you were to guess how many people did that from Hopkinson, what would that guess be?

EAZY E (42:16)
It's a really tough number because people actually go at all different times. So we left a little bit before midnight and there were more people heading out as we were heading in. if I had to guess, I'd say close to a thousand. I really would over the entire course of the time. But again, it's hard to say. Art, you've done it. Art.

Dave McGillivray (42:18)
Different times. I know, I know, I know. We left a little bit before me. Okay. Yeah, yeah I know. Couple hundred?

Art Trapotsis (42:32)
more.

Dave McGillivray (42:33)
Yeah.

No, really. Yeah, yeah. Wow.

Yeah, yeah.

Art Trapotsis (42:44)
Yeah, many years ago when they first started doing it, there were probably 300 people. So it's definitely gotten bigger. I'd like to transition to just chatting about the Boston Marathon Wheelchair Division. I understand it's celebrating the 50th anniversary. You know, is there anything planned to honor that milestone? And do you see the wheelchair division's legacy like inspiring the next generation of athletes?

Dave McGillivray (42:58)
Yeah.

Well, without a doubt. mean, obviously, you know, the pioneer was Bobby Hall and Bob and I ran up the East Coast of America together in 1981 from Winnihan, Florida, back to Boston. I ran and he pushed side by side, 1522 miles for the Jimmy Fund. And so we got to be pretty friendly along the way, obviously.

So he did Boston and then he did Falmouth. We're celebrating the 50th anniversary of wheelchair division in Falmouth too this year. So the BAA to my understanding is, you know, have recruited, you know, the best of the best and increased the field size of the wheelchairs just a little bit and increased the prize money significantly. I think first place prize money to celebrate 50 years is $50,000 men and women total purses in the

$220,000 range. But I think the BA has a lot of things that they're working on to celebrate the fact that it started with Barbie here in Boston. A lot of things started first here. The duo division with the Hoyts started here in Boston, the Wheelchair started here, Hand Cycles, I believe, started here. lot of women running in marathons.

Art Trapotsis (44:17)
Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (44:33)
here in Boston, know, the list goes on and on and on. So there's always something to celebrate here in Boston.

Art Trapotsis (44:38)
Absolutely.

EAZY E (44:39)
Yeah.

And you know who likes to celebrate is the crowd, right? So let's talk a little bit about the Boston Marathon crowds, right? They are iconic. From the first step on the Boston Marathon, there are crowds, right? Like it's deep. It's hard to imagine for people how many crowds. And somebody said, a friend of mine ran, she's from Sweden, she ran the Boston Marathon, and then she ran the New York City Marathon. And she said, the New York City Marathon fans,

Dave McGillivray (45:06)
I did, yeah.

EAZY E (45:06)
They applaud. They're out there cheering. The Boston Marathon fans are racing with you. Like it's a different sort of engagement that the fans have. But I'm a competitive guy. So who are the craziest fans along the way?

Dave McGillivray (45:21)
I'm still in there now, so.

EAZY E (45:29)
You know, coming over Heartbreak Hill, you hit those screaming eagles. It's pretty awesome. Wellesley, boy, boy, you hear that thunder coming from a while away. We're the best fans along the course, Dave.

Dave McGillivray (45:41)
Well, you know, obviously you got to be able to get to a spot and not a chair from that. So it all depends on where the major intersections are to be able to be able to get there to have a dense crowd. Obviously going to Kemmler Square is pretty loud too in the rest of the way, but you know, certainly runners look forward to getting to Wellesley for for the, for the scream tunnel and then getting to BC, the

I won't say too much, but just to get up and over the hills and get by those, not inebriated, know, devoting. You got to remember that Boston is one of the... Yeah, whatever. So what's interesting about Boston, the fans, is a 10 second story here for me is...

EAZY E (46:17)
I... It's gotten out of hand, I would say. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (46:30)
So during the hot year, 2012, it was 89 degrees at the start and along that entire course. And we ramped everything up from our water stations to spray stations at all our fire stations to, you know, ice out on the course, yada, yada, yada. And so the race happened and generally, you know, no one died. Everyone survived. We transported 250 people to area hospitals. We treated 2200 in our medical tents. It was worse than a war scene.

But everyone went home. But later on that night, I ran. And as I run at night, I take pride in how much our volunteers clean up after ourselves, you know, the water stations and everything else. But what I noticed that year more than any other year is there was trash everywhere, everywhere. But what the trash was, single-serve water bottles that we don't serve. We don't pass those out. know, popsicle sticks.

You know, plastic bags that had ice in it. In other words, the fans, the fans were the ones that helped keep our runners going and alive and healthy and safe. They all, and more than any other race, major marathon in the world. go through residential communities. We don't go through downtown. I mean, only 2.6 miles at a Boston Marathon is in the Boston Marathon, is in Boston. The rest is Ashland, Natick, Newton. Well, you know, so.

We're running by someone's front door. So they just come out and they are the most knowledgeable, understanding fans, marathon fans in the world. They don't necessarily at mile 18 yell out, way to go, way to go, almost done. I'm not almost done. I got eight more miles to go and it's hilly. So they know.

Not only do they yell and scream and cheer, but they know what to say too, right? And they know what to hand out, what not to hand out, stay back, all that. So I agree with you. They're like the sixth player on a basketball team type thing, you know? Yeah.

Art Trapotsis (48:27)
Yep.

That's a great story. So we have a couple more questions left here. One of them is one of our favorite questions to ask is about hidden gem endurance events in New England. And we asked this question recently on the podcast, you probably know Karen Smires. She referenced the now defunct Medford triathlon as being one of her favorite hidden gem endurance events, which I think you were probably organizing. Is there anything

Are there any hidden gem endurance events you want to share with our audience that you just love and would encourage us to participate in?

Dave McGillivray (49:12)
Yeah. Well, first of all, as far as Karen, I was her agent manager for a number of years and I directed the ITU triathlon world championship in 1990 in Walt Disney World in Florida. So I was, that was the second world championship. What was it? Avenue of France was in 89 and then 1990 was United States and I directed that race and Karen won it.

And I was her manager at the time too. So was pretty cool. So Karen won Bay State. Like I said, the Ironman in 1980. And when I got back, the very first race I ever directed was the Bay State Triathlon in Medford. So it was a mile swim, 40 mile bike and a 10 mile run on a criterium style course. That's how I was able get away with it because it was so tight versus just sending everyone off. Karen won it.

Art Trapotsis (49:40)
Cool.

Nice.

Dave McGillivray (50:07)
We've had, you know, Dave Scott came and won it and Tinley Lee came and won it and just all the iconic U.S. athletes. I represented most of them, if not all of them back in those days. So yeah, the Bay State the Cape Cod Endurance, it was the second Ironman distance triathlon in the world, second to Hawaii. And I created that on the Cape in Hyannis back in 1982. But a lot of these races that were around then,

have since gone away. But the one I'm trying to bring back is the Fenway Park Marathon. So I put on a marathon inside Fenway Park on the warning track a couple of years in a row. So that's 113 laps on the warning track inside Fenway Park. So that was pretty amazing. When people criticized me, said, you're never going to get anyone to do that. Well.

I needed 50 people, I got 50 people in about an hour. And people said that must have been the most boring marathon in the world. It was probably one of the most exciting marathons in the world. You're in this iconic stadium, the shrine, you know, have the jumbotron, you have fans in the stands, you know, you had, you know, technology keeping track of your laps and, you, and it's the only marathon I've ever run in my life.

where I could run in the marathon and watch the whole marathon at the same time. Michael Wardian won. I was watching Michael. He was passing me left and right and this kind of thing. I was directing it and running in it. And I put on a marathon inside Gillette Stadium. So there were some races like that that existed that don't now that I'm trying to bring back. I'd love to do the Bay State again, but we've had a lot of amazing endurance events here in

Art Trapotsis (51:38)
that's cool.

Dave McGillivray (52:00)
in New England over the years. I created the New England Triathlon series, one race in each of the six New England states, USTS races here. I've directed about 150 triathlons, World Cup races. One of them was at the World Trade Center in Boston, where the transition was inside the building. Imagine racking your bike inside of it. And so people would jump off the dock, swim around the pier, come out, come up the stairs, go into the building, get on their bike.

Art Trapotsis (52:18)
my.

Dave McGillivray (52:26)
run the bike out, around Memorial Drive, come back and then run around the Seaport and stuff. I've directed about 1,500 events and there's so many of them that have been just unbelievable events over the years.

EAZY E (52:40)
That's, those are really cool. I,

I love the idea of bringing back to Boston, the, the Fenway Park one. did the Spartan like stadium series in Fenway Park and you're, you go through the locker room. I mean, it's like to do something in that stadium is pretty cool. You run behind the scoreboard. So I, I wouldn't be surprised if you could get a lot of folks to do it.

Dave McGillivray (52:58)
I

emailed them two days ago to say I need an answer soon so I can schedule it. So hopefully they'll do it. Yes.

EAZY E (53:03)
Great. All right, Dave,

final question. You've done great. This has been incredibly inspiring and entertaining. our final question that we always end with is, tell us why you agree that New England is the greatest endurance region in the United States.

Dave McGillivray (53:24)
I think for a number of reasons. One is just the conditions within which we need to, we're faced with, you know, I mean, right now I went out this morning, it was 18 degrees with wind chill at single digits kind of stuff. If you lived in San Diego or Miami or something like that, you're not dealing with that. Yeah, maybe not the heat, but you know, there are some tough, cruel conditions out here, but that's good. You know, when, whenever I wake up, if I look out the window,

of training, how people say, oh, training, I'm not going to go for a run. said, I'm definitely going for a run because I want to be challenged by the conditions so that I am acclimated to those kinds of conditions. If in fact we're faced with it come race time kind of a thing. That's number one. number two, I think just the whole club mentality, there are so many different running clubs and triathlon clubs and, and, and it just, you know, there's camaraderie.

There's the social aspect of it. There's being able to turn to somebody who has experience and, you know, gain that knowledge from them who've been there before. It's omnipresent here in New England. So just to grow up here and to be an endurance athlete here, knowing that there's so many current endurance athletes and former endurance athletes, I think events, there are some very unique events here in New England, you know.

We direct the Mount Washington Road Race, I direct the Falmouth Road Race, Boston. are races that have been around for a long time, 50 years, 100 years. So to be able to grow up in this environment where the best of the best in the world have come here and participated is kind of thrilling to know that you're participating on the same course in the same event that they currently are or they have in the past. and I think media-wise,

We're respected. We're treated like if there's a major event going on here in Boston or an endurance athlete who does really well, the media recognizes that and exposes that. And then lastly, philanthropy. think we have a lot of good people here who recognize that they are fortunate enough to have their health and be able to do this. And they give back and they help those who are less fortunate. And a lot of people right now around here talking about doing something special.

Art Trapotsis (55:27)
Yeah.

Dave McGillivray (55:42)
the victims of the wildfires in California. It's just, it's every day is constant. And so it's the best place in the country to participate in endurance sports.

Art Trapotsis (55:53)
That was a phenomenal answer. Dave, and you're a nucleus to the endurance community. I the number of events that you've organized and the philanthropy you've done, you've sprouted all these branches. And I don't know if you realize, but you've had a tremendous impact on this whole community. And I just wanted to thank you for that. And thank you for coming on the podcast today. This was fantastic.

Dave McGillivray (56:18)
My pleasure guys, thanks for having me.

EAZY E (56:20)
Yeah, that's great. Is there anything like last question, anything you want to plug Dave, like we'll tag you in all of our social posts, but is there any sort of specific anything right now that you're working on that you'd like to plug to our millions of endurance listeners?

Dave McGillivray (56:34)
Well, I've been, I've probably helped raise through my events, all the events and everything, know, 200, $300 million for all these different causes. And I started my own foundation, the David McGillvray Finish Strong Foundation, because I've written three children's books, Dream Big, Running Across America and Finish Strong. And I'm writing my fourth children's book on Iron Man. And it's going to be a great children's book kind of a thing.

And I my other book, The Last Pick, which is sort of an autobiography, and I'm writing another book. So my foundation is the beneficiary of all of this and, you know, basically just inspiring kids and have them believing in themselves and so forth. So, you know, just pay attention to maybe the foundation when you see it around. Maybe you can help support that. But no, I mean, the bottom line is, you know, to everyone I'm talking to, just understand that the most important person on this planet is you.

you have to take care of yourself and you have to pay attention. And if I didn't pay attention, I may not be talking to you right now. So again, just because you're fit doesn't mean you're healthy. Sometimes us endurance athletes, feel we're invincible, that nothing's going to bring us to our knees, but we want you to be safe. We want you to take care of yourself. So if you feel something, say something, that's my message.

Art Trapotsis (57:49)
Wow, excellent. Thank you so much, Dave. And thanks for everyone listening today. And thank you to our sponsors, Lark Fine Foods, 100 % woman-owned specialty food company that makes excellent cookies up on the North Shore. The Everyday Athlete, a book about balancing work, family, and fitness, and Kinetic with a K. They manufacture drink with ketones. And for those who want to learn more,

Dave McGillivray (57:50)
you

Art Trapotsis (58:13)
About Dave, we're going to tag him in our Instagram account, is at New England Endurance. We'll also tag the BAA.org Boston Marathon as well. And you can listen to this on Spotify and YouTube and Apple. until next time, folks, keep pushing your limits. I hope you're inspired by Dave McGilvary. Get out there and drop some hammers and explore the beautiful terrain of New England. Thank you.